Interview with Matt Kibbe: How COVID Drove the World Insane (Transcript)

I had an opportunity to sit down with the great Matt Kibbe of Free the People. Matt broadcasts on The Blaze and has his own channel producing interviews and content on big topics of our day. While I was last in D.C. I sat down with him for this interview.

TRANSCRIPT

MK: elcome to Kibbe of Liberty Justin how's it going

JH: Matt thanks for having me on yeah it's uh we're in cold rainy Washington DC the belly of the beast but uh we first met each other physically in in the Free State the free City of Miami Florida yeah that was well I'm from San Diego so I'm actually very keen on experiencing Seasons again I used to live here in DC so I'm used to this but every now and then I like to to leave that terrible 71 degree weather and experience something very unique and dark.

MK: yeah that's like DC and also the weather is very dark too yeah and we were at a meeting, the annual Gathering of the Brownstone Institute and our mutual friend Jeffrey Tucker and I really love that day. First of all the structure was um um a one day of conversation and a dinner um I get exhausted with multiple days of stuff but it it almost felt like um like a safe space for people that question lockdowns and mass mandates and and vaccine mandates and all the stuff that for so many years we haven't even been allowed to utter words like that um and you you emceed most of that and and you were talking about your book which we're going to talk about but just talking about the the battle for a little bit of Sanity when it came to these extreme policies that just devastated So Many Lives I I think do you think that people who were buying into that just sort of quietly accepting some of these more Extreme Measures are they are are people waking up are Americans waking up?

02:19

JH: I think that's a trajectory uh I I think during the pandemic maybe 20 of people were like you and I uh very uh bombastically against these very stringent mitigations I think there were another 20 on the other team as we used to call them uh we still call them team apocalypse right yeah the sky is falling and you need to lock down harder here let me weld you inside your apartment then there was another 60 in between of people who were very much like look I I don't want to get in the fight because everyone saw the fights whether it was a grocery aisle on the playground on a plane at schools right and so it it took you know it took a little courage to stick your neck out on these things because you you'd get it slapped yeah but I think more and more people realize one that these were unnecessary and two they wish they had stood up a little stronger but you're right I mean the these conferences that we've had now we had one of ourselves and our group in October the one with Brownstone and Miami a few weeks ago and we're having these um as we as we get going which is a very safe place yeah because you you really don't know when you when you talk to your neighbors or friends at school right you ever find yourself like dropping clues trying to understand where they stand on the issue right you know like “oh these these masks man that's that's crazy I hope they don't come back on again” and if they agree with you it's like oh my gosh you're one of us okay here we go right side secret code but you don't know if your neighbor that one guy who's still in his car double masking alone and you're like what what can I do to cure this right

04:22
MK: yeah I would love to help that guy but in the meantime I'm just gonna be like yeah no but um yeah like if you go back and look at the stuff um I'm still proud of the very first thing I wrote I don't write that much anymore we mostly produce video content but I had to get it off my chest and and I was actually sitting on a beach writing about Supply chains in March of 2020. and that's because I'm a weirdo Economist and unnaturally I thought about these things but if you read and see the stuff that I've done and free the people's done over the you know starting March 2020 to today um it they're less and less forgiving for people who are irrationally afraid and just just completely unconcerned about the damage the economic damage the emotional damage the human damage that would be caused by this because I mean we try to be very reasonable and thoughtful and I want you to understand where I'm coming from if maybe maybe you don't process the world through my economic lens but if you literally stay the F home as was the hashtag in March of 2020 a lot of people are going to die

JH: it's true and I remember my first foray I wrote an article in medium March 9th uh the coronavirus dashboards will kill us all long before the virus ever will and just talking about the bad data points right because that was kind of my forte coming to the cities as a as a data expert and Gathering other people which were like I think I think they've got the numbers all wrong right and these are completely overblown but you're right as as I got into it they're they're obviously a lot of fears and I didn't want to be overtly in people's faces over that I'm the first 4am program we had was uh let's get back to work right which seems an innocuous sort of thing that we could all strive for yeah but eventually I dropped that facade too and just said uh if you have a step closer with that welding torch it's going in your face right I really was going not going to let anyone put a mask on my kid again right uh I wasn't going to let them take another year or a week away from my kids uh I wasn't going to let them stand in my way for what I was going to put out there because I I saw so much of the dramatic the dramatic impact this had on people not only their businesses their lives but their emotional and and just their American health right I think we just we lost so much in that endeavor yeah so you you

06:30

MK: So like me just felt um you you had to sort of take up intellectual arms and engage these irrational and dangerous ideas like you couldn't help yourself I couldn't and you know.

JH: I cut my first teeth in the in the political sphere doing a lot of Internet stuff and so we went back to memes I had one that went viral where I had uh a a skater kid in LA and uh they were filling in that famous Venice uh skate park right with sand they didn't want the kids catching it right so they they're filling in the with sand these kids are standing around going what are you talking about this is like our life yeah and I I had him standing in front of the bulldozer and I compared to Tiananmen Square I took a lot of heat for that but it went viral and I said I'm gonna I'm gonna do more of this stuff where I can get people really thinking strongly about this uh so we put another one together just you know we'd put do a lot of data stuff we do a lot of memes too one of them was uh uh a turtle nicely swimming through the ocean and looking at a mask floating down around him and his friends right think about the environmental impact of all the PPE something that might engage other people who would otherwise ignore our message so those were some of the tactics we eventually moved to which is like uh it seems like our data points we've won the day yeah but we have to someone win the hearts and minds of people uh one of the key points of course when I talk about this in the book is the impact on our kids because you and I we're we're adults hopefully we can take our anger to the to the the polling booth but they don't have that option right and so uh in the end I said I'm doing I'm doing this so at least there's a record for my kids that I it up for them

08:31

MK: Justin uh let's let's maybe text take a step back and you mentioned that your group had gathered talk about your groups for people that don't know the sort of the the organizational structure of of where your battle yes was launched you know I left politics uh in 2012 moved out back to California where I'm from and I was doing you know very heavy private business stuff I was a chief marketing officer Chief data officer and going into 2020 I had some of my Best Consulting clients I had one it was a um a high-end golf excursion for Baby Boomers yeah don't laugh and then the second one was a a platform for parents to figure out where to send their kids to college and the third one was a a wealthy uh vacation club for families so you can imagine all three of those clients were dead by the time March was over there no baby boomers gonna go golfing anytime soon so I had time in my hands and I started looking at of the numbers I said I think I think something's off Dr Fauci is saying one out of 100 people are going to die from this in front of Congress I said that's those are not the numbers I'm seeing so I found other people who agreed with me we got with people at Stanford University uh Professor Ioannidis uh Jay B Scott Atlas we got to know these guys very quickly who were confirming what we were thinking too and so we I built kind of a ragtag bunch of analysts experts moms and dads and uh it was called rational ground and we basically became the back end for Scott Atlas when he was at the White House trying to write the ship there and uh you know a lot of people gave grief to sky he's not an epidemiologist he's not a virologist no he's a he's a darn good policy expert he knows how to apply science into policy and so he was trying to get the masks off he was trying to get the kids back into school get rid of these quarantines, stringencies. the plexiglass right all those things and we are you're providing him the back end data completely pro bono every day we'd wake up here's the request from alpha that was our secret code name for the project project Alpha what does he need he's going to Philadelphia he needs some of the numbers there Burke's is ahead of him and she's got an army of CDC employees where Supply with all this gross ridiculous data and so we'd counter that and he was winning the dayand then you know the election didn't go the way we thought it would so he wasn't around to stick around and kind of do those things Burks and fauci stepped back in he had largely marginalized them by the time the fall came but that election was very consequential and it led to another year or two or more of real pain for um Americans kids especially.

MK: I was I've always been surprised by the politics of lockdowns because I I thought it was politically unsustainable for more than a couple weeks and then it's a couple months and then then Biden becomes the president so I'm like okay he he just won in part demonizing Trump's lockdown down policies and and sort of feeding on the damage that Trump had done he'll stop now because he won and like he doubled down he did it was I'm like this is insane it was something

JH: you know myself I was a strong Trump supporter I read the numbers I predicted he was going to win in 2016 you know much to a lot of my friends and family Chagrin he won um came around to 2020. I said he looks pretty good but then it it you know the The Rona hit and the policies hit and I'll never forget that day March 29th that faithful presser uh White House Garden Burks fauci and Trump and the rest of them Pence especially yeah and he gets up there he says we're extending the two-week lockdown for another 40 days and I tweeted out Trump just lost the election I I knew it I knew it just because I knew demographics I knew even if just one or two or three percent of that older population stayed home or felt a miss about this he would lose in other words Shenanigans of the election no doubt but uh in my mind he lost that day and um I was it's it's really unfortunate he uh he I think was convinced by Dr Atlas that it was the wrong move but never took any major efforts to correct things because the election was there and then he lost it was game over yeah so I

MK: I have a theory that I'm not going to tell you yet because I want to hear your theory first but why why did and and it coming from you I think I think it's more it's more credible as as someone that that supported Trump predicted that Trump would win in 16. um why did the Trump Administration get coveted policy wrong for most politicians

JH: There were very few even Republicans who stuck their neck out I could probably count them on hand um Massey Biggs a little bit of Ted Cruz a couple people here and there of course Governor DeSantis and a few of the governors came along for the rest I think in Rand Paul would be on that yeah and so but it was very far and fee between it right and I I think in the end he was listening to people who were basically cowards they were very fearful in their minds they really did believe that millions of people were going to die if they didn't take this action right it's like look this is a a viral respiratory aerosolized pathogen you might as well put forth your puny arm to stop the Mississippi as you would to stop this thing right they really had their mind that they were gods they could control this thing they bought into the faucism on this stuff and they thought we'll just go I think um if I were to put the blame uh I think the buck stops at Trump he he's really good at at his gut instincts but he's also he he trusts people and a lot of people want his trust and he trust the wrong people I'll tell you one person in particular who should take a lot more blame is um vice president Pence. Pence shepherded Berks around the country on her rainbow tour to all the governors that's why dewine and Ohio became a big covidian uh you know she basically convinced a lot of people of this fear Dr fauci fear all these things he bought into and um he he trusted the wrong people

MK: I had forgotten that about Pence that's a that's a really important point because she was um Enemy Number Two I guess if if fauci is the the Dr Evil of of coveted lockdowns I have a complimentary Theory to that because and this is just Theory I have no evidence except for what I saw at the time um parallel to um the Trump fouchy and often Birx’s press conferences was the governor of New York doing his daily press gaggle where he's pontificating about and I've documented some of the more ridiculous things he said about you know following the science and it's just facts and there's no emotions and it's and it was it was all Bs of course but I think that Trump the marketer saw Cuomo killing it on the radio yeah he's killed he's killing the ratings that's right it was the mic yeah and he had the mic yeah and and this is this is I'm not just the policies but my beef is that he made fauci into a rock star by by platforming him and making him the scientists that we all needed to trust um and I think it was it was it started off as a marketing thing and once he went down that path he couldn't turn the ship back around

JH: look at you know I say in the book uh we welcome people to this side right like we've seen uh major epidemiologists on CNN like uh Lena Wen who who was calling there wasn't a lockdown and shutdown that she didn't love but she came out and said uh you know late in the game masks are facial decorations on CNN right and we're like hey welcome to Tina welcome to team reality there's one caveat though you must never have an influence on public policy again yeah that's that's the trade-off well we'll forgive you but you can't be in there again because I mean the the impact was so Dreadful and we talked about this in the book we talk about some of the stats right and some of them you'll find interesting like on the on the economic side got to talk with some engineers in Vegas uh they own uh they they run a couple properties off the Vegas Strip…

17:16

…they spent the spring of 2020. April and May basically Walking The Halls going into every single hotel room and flushing the toilet and running the loo and everything because you know Legionnaires disease and it was almost like Jack Nicholson and The Shining I think his name was Michael Hurtado you know Michael Hurtado all work a no play makes Michael Hurtado a very dull boy as they're walking the halls trying to you know simulate a population because even the plumbing was designed for a certain amount of gravity and water coming down and people staying there at a certain point and then you know even the the TP run right yeah the TP run was caused not necessarily by everyone going to get TP because they thought were running out it was because we do if you'll excuse the phrase half of our business at our business and that sort of supply chain with the you know the massive roles that they mount on to the stadium stalls and uh colleges or business Parks so that comes in on these big pallets on trucks and that was the whole supply chain that got shut down and so they had to do something by the way those those marketers over at Charmin they're very good they if you Google Charmin Forever they wiped it up yeah well they're what they did they repurposed all those big roles and they'll send it to you with a big mounted metal rod it'll last you a month I mean but that was the funny part the the Dreadful parts we talk about in the books this kind of kind of bridges across political spectrums We Believe Matt that in the in the spring of 2020 we probably missed about 250 000 cases of child abuse because it's typically sharp eye teachers and administrators that call that out and kids weren't in school and think about even when kids got back into school how many bruises on mom's face do we miss because she had to wear a mask at drop off yeah right you don't think about the regular sort of interactions that we have as humans and how we rely on those for morality for our civilization and when you upend those it it Causes Chaos it causes serious harm uh these kids will never get that back

MK: yeah like you think about it um it's supply chain is not the right word but we had all of these um cultural processes for managingproblems right and you describe just one micro example of that and there's unfortunately probably an infinite number of Supply chains that we broke in the process of saying you know what we're just we're just not going to let people kids go to school um so let's we've teased the book but let's let's talk about this let's let's shamelessly Flack fantastic um gone viral how covid drove the world insane I think your title's spot on that's a very scary looking virus on the cover um you

JH: this is out how long uh just a month or two okay just just out from Regnery um this was a real work of passion I never thought I'd write a book on this stuff but uh and it was a painful thing to write through in fact it's a very accessible read we took a very different approach and at first I started kind of like a personal Memoir of my experiences with Scott and everything but then I read what was neat I thought what was needed right now was kind of that that that library of someone comes up to me and says I know plexiglass was kind of a really piss-poor you know intervention why was that and we go through and talk about the craziness of plexiglas where we talk about all the data but all the stories behind masking um and we get into some of the the crazy stories that all of us experienced whether it was someone chasing us from a a park or them you know they padlocked my daughter's swing set her favorite swing set at the park for for a year and I just I'm I'm dumbfounded yeah and you know the experience that people had on the ground is very different than the stats you tell us we share both so you can sort of combine these things but um we basically take every single myth and I hope people take this to you know their school board and just take it to these things because you can see already here in the winter of 2022 they're they're not stopping right they're they're starting to put masks back on kids here in DC what a what a terrible predicament you guys face for kids here and then San Diego I had it better but not much and um you know we're taking every measure we can just to make sure our kids have a normal existence

MK: Yeah you mentioned uh uh Leonard Wen who was uh I guess the top um medical expert on CNN right um and and all of the horrible opinions she had when it mattered um I agree with you I mean one of the reasons we're having this conversation is they're not not going away and I call it the covet industrial complex and it's a web of of government interests and non-profit interests and and corporate interests that um all benefit from keeping us scared and and and um I don't know exactly why they chose to lock your your daughter's swing set which seems both comically stupid and unspeakably evil at the same time but I do get um why they want this regime to continue um because it was a very profitable thing for them and and they're itching for the next one

JH: yeah I mean you can look at this in a a spectrum of conspiratorial lenses right at the far extreme people said this was planned for the beginning it was purposely leaked and they they had this this sort of you know doctored out this was going to be their narrative I said look these people are not that smart okay it was one of the main messages I got from Scott Atlas talking to him on a daily basis I said maybe they're trying to save face because I'm a kind person I like to look at the kindness it's more idiocracy yeah he's adjusting to these people are dumb you have to know that I'm like oh great but I think when they saw the Gap there right the fear Gap they they took advantage of that yeah I don't think they planned but I think they absolutely inserted themselves and they will absolutely for the next variant the next pandemic the next boogeyman that they conjure up they will use these same tactics every single one of these people in the press and Dr fauci would gladly gladly weld you inside your apartment if they thought would do good yeah now they they'd burn their hands off before they do what they're they don't know how to use them they wouldn't know how to do that yeah there you go yeah so it's it's definitely gives you pause because they're saying the quiet part's out loud now but um I think we've got a good story to counter it we have a good window of opportunity to bring people to this side and arm them up with this is that like

24:11

MK: I um there are definitely some dumb conspiracy theories out there about this which um I think the the willful covering up of of the story and the demonization of of coldorf and bharacharya and the Great Barrington declaration makes people think that there's something funny going on but I think you know when I talk about the covet industrial complex I'm just talking about the natural process of special interests to game the system yeah so that they they you know I don't think they're going to go release another virus hopefully they're not that evil but they would love to keep the cash flowing and that that to me is not a conspiracy

JH: that's how the world Works sure it's always they're they're greatly incentivized alumnios well you think about for example these hospitals right and there's a strange set of incentives there you shut down the most profitable parts of these hospitals the elective surgeries right and so you know a lot of people would throw dirt on these Hospital administrators saying they're bilking us but if you look at it from their perspective yeah any hospital administrator worth their assault is like okay how am I going to make up that money right and keep myself in Tech I mean we had probably three dozen hospitals Rural and otherwise shut down during the pandemic because they just you know show me a hospital that's under 75 capacity and I'll show you a hospital going out of business yeah and these ERS were not crowded I mean they had time for a lot of good dance routines right and so these are these are the myths that we try to bust in the book and we try to bring it to the perspective of what do you do now now you know I could be very wrong I mean there are things in this pandemic that I never thought would be planned or particulated and now I'm like hey the puck is headed there we'll see um but we don't have like kind of that Margaret Sanger letter you know to the Reverend that kind of gives us uh you know the the head of Pfizer doesn't have a letter out there tell me he's ready to reduce the population and just activate the 5G on this no it's not happening but yeah um there are definitely forces out there who want you to share our bike with your three neighbors and eat insects the rest of your life and this is just sort of they're very very pleased with the way that people have responded

MK: I mean I think again it's not I don't think this is big seat conspiracy is so much as there they saw an opportunity to exploit a crisis to promote the things that they were already promoting and they have they have all these ideas that are that are sort of centrally planned things that the one that's that's most interesting to me and I'd be curious to see what you think about this when um Jay Bhattacharya was on the show um you know one of the Mysteries has always been like where did fauci get so much power and why does he make so much money and um all that stuff and and Jay who has been in public health and epidemiology uh preceding this he's like there was an explosion in funding in niaid to deal with bioterrorism and this is a fact and you can read art uh fauci himself worrying about um a republican Takeover in whatever it was um that he was worried that their huge budget increases every year we're going to go down so I do think there's there's a little bit of fatal conceit in in what um government scientists were imagining they could accomplish and and so I've the more and more that I've read and more and more that um fauci and Collins the revelation of how desperately they were trying to demonize their critics I think there's there's serious culpability in the government science Community for

JH: what's happened to us absolutely and you know you look at just one issue that Jay breaks up uh where Dr Collins who's the former director of uh the Annie H and Dr fauci are on the the group that actually decides the funding for all the grants and so here are people that are study policy and funding grants you know if you had a a group going through to test like the efficacy of masks and it was going to lean in a different way what are the chances of you getting money on that probably zero right we need to cut that off but look I if you look at the writings of Dr fauci over the years he's been writing about the last four decades he both writes with one gentleman named David Moran's been trying to get an interview with this guy because uh they started out like there and you can see over the years their frustration with the infection diseases that keep coming up and they can't seem to quell it and then they get all this power and praise where Dr fauci and his emails is talking about how Brad Pitt's gonna play him in the movie and then it comes to September 2020 he writes a very I don't see the likeness well not quite but but he talks about how you know isn't it possible that we can bend modernity to our will and so they really do see themselves as you know this God character that cancer maneuver these pieces and of course this becomes a a very likable thing for politicians I mean the reason that Dr fauci flipped on masks was politicians needed a scapegoat right the cases are going up Matt uh why aren't you masking hard enough oh cases are going down thank you so much for masking just so kind right and and this became a tool for Governors for County administrators to use as well it's the behavior of these peons underneath us yeah and what's crazy is you go back I talk about this in the book you go back 100 years to the Spanish Flu you go 400 years back to the plague in Milan and the same things haunted them just mass chaos and um I think there's a lot I had a Newsweek article this last week on just Dr Fauci is not learning the lessons of past pandemics and that fear is not the way and we've tried all these things before

MK: I've called it uh scientism this and and that phrase from that journal article bending modernity um I I think about it and and Jay and I talked about this because he's an economist as well so he's he's a scientist but he also understands Frederick Hayek who who talks about the Fatal conceit of planners and the arrogance to think you could basically redesign um humanity and the Earth and our environment and how our bodies react to infectious diseases and how natural immunity functions um it sounds crazy to think you could do things like that and it and to me it invokes like um when Mao Zedong decided that insects were a problem like he couldn't grow enough crops because there were too many Inns I'm getting this backwards there are too many birds oh okay um and so he had um the little Chinese Communist kids kill all the birds and there's there's there's documentary video footage of this what happens when you kill all the birds no one eats the insects and so it was a god-like belief and he he would call it this way a Godlike belief that um fixing micro tuning um the Earth is something that man can perfect and I think fauci's got a little bit of that a lot of that arrogance in him to think that we can make viruses go away right like that's that's nuts

JH: no it isn't I think that's that's part of the problem is they it is that that very basic uh sort of uh passion that goes back to even Lucifer which is I I don't want to lose a single soul here right we're gonna we're gonna make sure no one dies and you're all gonna obey my will and that really is their conceit but when you look at some of these issues now and you realize they're papering over the the damage we're going because the first people to come to us and say hey either covet has cured cancer or something else is happening altogether we're oncologists in Spring of 2020 who said we're diagnosing half as many patients now that's going to end in stage three and stage four cancers right because people were too scared to go to the hospital I got a text message from a friend of mine Orange County or or they weren't allowed to go to the hospital that's that's an aspect as well yeah yeah so that that feared to other man and this friend of mine said my his parents both died one from an undiagnosed cancer one from an undiagnosed blood disease they were they were too scared to get treatment because they were told again and again don't go to the hospital gotta flatten the curve yeah and those have real impacts when you see like the CDC tracks and stuff like how many people died at home versus died you know in the hospital and there were a lot of people who suffered through cuts infections and would later die at home because they they just didn't want to go in and and be the problem person right

MK: yeah you mentioned earlier like um this mythology that hospitals were overwhelmed and surely there were hospitals that are overwhelmed um but this idea that hospitals would sit around with excess capacity that's that's called bankruptcy in other businesses so when you have some I'll pick on Cuomo because he's easy to pick on and he's he's now disgraced but you know when you react when you're a politician that knows nothing about medical service certainly nothing about Hospital management and you mandate that we're going to prioritize covid over X he doesn't even know what x is because there's an infinite number of reasons you might

34:12

have to go to the hospital and and he couldn't possibly know if it's life-threatening or not so there there was very much a lot of government bullying on hospitals so it was a combination of fear like were you afraid to go to the hospital and get covid so you skipped your your cancer exam or did some bureaucrat decide that you weren't a priority right now right and and I don't know how we ever sort that all out but we will find um and and I know you documented this book everything from from the mental health of kids to cancer and heart disease which are still like the number one and number two killers um cardiovascular disease and after that somewhere down the line once we sort through the data is going to be Covid but you can't like postpone other health problems

JH: in order to deal with one right and look you know we haven't even touched on the third rail of healthcare politics which is the vaccines and that was difficult for us to touch too when we looked at this thing because we had grown a custom here in the U.S that the minute you sort of you know shy into that ground you're immediately you know branded uh an anti-vaxxer like I've got eight kids and they they all took the the right you know vaccines when they were kids we used to span them out everything else but I'll tell you um you know when I look at this stuff now and knowing how the sausage is made I keep thinking well tell me some other things right right I I don't trust these things and I think um it's been a huge like gaping Gulf black hole now between citizens and their health care providers who really haven't been upfront with them and the you know the people above them have been honest with them there's just a line to seats all around and it really it creates a real real challenge in society I'll give you one example it used to be if you were you know kids in school your vacation went along right you'd call in and say hey Johnny's sick he's not coming in today right now you can't do that the minute you say Johnny sick it's like two Covid tests and everything else there so you just FIB the other way so when when they are sick you go oh no he's just he's taking a personal day right because you don't want to be the guy who comes back and tests positive for these kids who hours absolutely no risk for Covid yeah right and then the whole you know the whole class has to quarantine because you tested the kid they made you right it it when you make parents into liars to keep their kids in school you gotta you got a societal problem

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MK: this is a um speaking of vaccines and particularly um the the coveted vaccines mRNA um this is a very divisive issue for Libertarians because on the one hand um we celebrate medical Innovation and we celebrate what um what a free market Society has done um to allow us to live longer and healthier lives and I'm personally and most people like my life is here I'm alive today because of medical innovation um but there was also this um and it goes back to sort of fauci's controlling of the funding of research and essentially the socialization of of both the production and the distribution and ownership of the vaccine um I think the whole this whole system's corrupt now and I think if I was a vaccine company big multinational and I could convince governments to mandate that people use my product I'd probably go for that but that in no way um reflects a market where people are are making choices and there's informed consent and there's competition amongst producers no it's like this is the one oh by the way we the government were heavily involved in creating this thing um you're going to take it and you're going to get boosted so I like I maybe I sound like an anti-vaxxer now but I think you should be skeptical again of of a very centralized politicized process that has no um relationship to the usual Choice based consumer of Medical Services thing that we believe in

JH: yeah look and it's easy to get ahead of yourself on these issues we we know for a fact for example the vaccines are causing issues with menstrual cycles there are immune complexes where young kids who have already recovered from covid and now have the stuff flowing through them they don't know how to do it and then of course there's the other stuff the myocarditis which is well tested beyond that the clots are still kind of out there we need to figure out what's going on but I tell you you know if you had to bet against it put down money against those sort of blood clots that have been prominent in a couple movies and everything I don't know that I put money against it I mean the way the truth that the history has gone there but these things have to be borne out the right way but in the end like this data is so slow to come out and they're parsing it right so my uh my social media accounts for example just like many of my colleagues like Jay and otherwise were taken down right around the time that Jen Psaki is over the pulpit saying that they're working with Facebook and Twitter were you banned on Twitter I was banned on Twitter I was kicked off but I formed a legal group that took me under the wing and we're suing the government we just got back all our foias um but we're gonna have some fun in this next little bit we've got you know Elon obviously making a lot of fuss and I think um we uh what may happen by the time this airs I think we're going to settle with Twitter they're gonna give me all the details on what happened with me and I'm going to use that against the government yeah because it's like one thing like these are private companies I don't have a lot of recourse but the minute the government uses them as a proxy to silence me that's a First Amendment violation that joint action is something we're going to look very strongly at because you know when it comes to the issues that we saw even in the four years now where they're saying hey this person's talking about menstrual issues take that down really turns out that was true right so these are issues that I think have real big implications and we talk about in the book you know how how is it you're going to fight these things and hopefully we bring you know more converts to the cause if you will who come to realize they they made that mistake now that last one that vaccine issue is really difficult it's one thing to admit hey I was wrong on masks I was wrong on lockdowns I see your way but ninety percent of people got a shot or more that stuff's still floating around with and there's a lot of cognitive dissonance that goes into saying I think it's bad for me right yeah yeah and so I can't blame anyone for not jumping on board and trying to stick their neck out on these issues but when it comes to these Freedom issues we may have to yeah like

MK: um this uh I think what elon's doing at Twitter is fascinating and I I have friends um from sort of the Silicon Valley world that um very much believe that he's doing it for the right reasons meaning he he wants the truth to come out and I wouldn't I wouldn't always put all my eggs in the basket of trusting a billionaire to do the right thing because you know be whatever I don't know what his motives are but um he does seem to be hell-bent on on an open and transparent process and and we're going to keep following those breadcrumbs to that government official that made these these Tech um sensors and offer that they couldn't refuse and they could do it quite explicitly on in press conferences Elon has been threatened by all these politicians.

JH: yeah I think it's a it's a really intriguing Factor on so many levels but again I guess the cost of Truth is about 44 billion dollars so we'll we'll see how this comes out um but I there's some promising things that have been uh foretold to me and I hope they come to fruition so we have some type of of transparency Clarity some you know some light on this issue because we can't we can't let this happen again that's kind of our next role as we've been taking the book and its measures to say all right how do you how do you organize people to say well you know you're not going to be doing this to my kid again I guarantee that right you are not going to be forcing a mask on my preschooler yeah and so I have to send it to speech therapy now right that's those are real impacts in my life they don't get back those years um someone's gonna have to pay for that yeah there's um

MK: I don't know if you've read it and I'm now trying to remember the name of this National Security memorandum that the Biden Administration released um which is their their coveted response not covet but pandemic response plan and it's a national security memo and it goes back to this this idea that that perhaps this was all intended as a biosecurity response um that that has gone poorly but the way I read it and the way that Jay bhattacharya reads it is that the government the not just the Biden Administration but all of these unfireable bureaucrats they're they're preparing to double down there's going to be more aggressive testing there's going to be a vaccine ready within some ridiculously short period of time for the next challenge and in order to do all those things they have to do exactly what they did this time but harder so I don't think anybody's anybody that did this to us is not thinking I'm not like I'm not going to do that again that was crazy they're thinking I'm going to double down because we just didn't do it hard enough

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JH: well look they're hoping that time heals all wounds and that people forget about this and then they can bring it back again now they can't they've tried this several times you know try to mask up an entire college and people you know sort of rose up and said no yeah and but I don't I don't know how long that lasts so the idea is like we need to codify something I'll give you an example um this is an article I wrote for uh it went on Fox News the other day and it was about a 46 year old woman uh Down syndrome largely non-verbal her sister is her caretaker and her life this is early April 2020 taken to a hospital ER covet respiratory disease not sure what's going on they take her in the back sister goes to go with her you can't come back here she would never see her sister again for the next 10 days they would try to get information what's going on she she had no idea what was going on they basically said goodbye to her on FaceTime over an iPad in the parking lot of the hospital they read her charts later and find out she was so Disturbed and upset they had to restrain her with straps she was strapped to her gurney she was strapped for gurney for for 10 days yeah and then died not having anyone around her of having any clue what was happening she had no idea what medicines they were giving her and uh when I when I see that I go I'm I'm gonna get Justice for uh for Franca

MK: yeah that I read that um I think you first talked about this on Twitter and then you wrote this up and and what I thought at the time that it it is so horrifically inhumane I think about how it's possible that healthcare workers could think that's okay I'm sure there was a rule or mandate or something or just just practices but how could someone that that got into medicine help people do that to somebody I don't so there's some sort of crazy um group thing that's that's deadly evil in that story

JH: yeah I mean it goes back this is sort of we never learned from the history right even 400 years ago I mentioned Milan Italy I talked about this in the book and how they got so scared they burned everything that was soiled there was rumors that uh there were foreign forces coming into the city to whitewash the walls and anoint the benches as they say in Italian with water infected water to spread it further a gentleman's in church this one journal entry has it he gets up from praying he goes to brush off his pew people immediately attack him thinking that he's anointing the bench take him outside the journal entry ends I don't think he could have survived very many moments later yeah and you know we we have these histories that are replete there it goes back to even Biblical times there's a a rabbinical story that's passed down about the people of Noah the the people that he left behind or you know not God's favorite people said when the waters rose uh these are the people who didn't make it on the ship right uh they they put their children to their hips when it Rose to uh their chest they put their children on their shoulders but when the waters Rose to their neck they put their children under their feet so they could survive there are times when I felt like these Health officials did that to my kids right yeah yeah it's a it's a wrenching thing when you when you realize you get that call from school and they say uh yeah someone tested positive and you tell your daughter you're not going to school for 10 days yeah and then I tell my next daughter you're not going to school with from November Thanksgiving of 2021 until January of 2022 we had a kid at home every single day because of stupid exposure rules right quarantining the healthy people thinking that somehow they could contact trace their way out of this nonsense and it was I mean you know we were all shut out of schools in the spring of 2020 in the fall of 2020 that winner of 2021 was worse because it was like quarantined and shut down by proxy and he never knew it was coming it drove parents crazy I think that's what we want a lot of our conference for that cause which is it's making sure that this we're we're just not going to allow it to happen again yeah and I want people to to get both passionate about it but also just um we're gonna have to bridge that olive leaf and bring people over to to show them what's going on and hopefully come to some better agreement on this thing you know the the

MK: the the stories about the horrible things that people do when they're scared um I probably naively thought that Americans were better than that no we we scared people into horrible behavior and I think those hospital workers are just a one of an infinite number of examples of that um teachers behave the same way so yeah you gotta you gotta push on and uh how's how's this going like um are you are you tearing up the world with sales it's going really well I mean what's great is like uh this book and this entire Endeavor has bridged political divides uh I think um you had Jennifer Sey on very good friend of mine we come from a completely different backgrounds and yet we're the best of friends now yeah and because it's amazing how quickly those um those bridges can be built when it's the same person coming after your kids right sales of the book are going well lots of people on Kindle and audible wanted to take this with them and understand things very quickly and make it a very accessible book I've had people come back because I read this like overnight I couldn't stop and some people said it was a painful read because they can't believe we did this yeah but it was it kind of gave them the battlements they need to remind themselves what they went through but there's also people who are you know seeing this for the first time and just starting their Journey back from that darkness and I hope they'll take that book so they can get it uh you can get it if you go to goneviralbook.com godviralbook.com will take you right there to Amazon to buy it but um we we've gotten some great feedback and it's been a it's been a CR I never thought I would write a book this was a trajectory in my life I never expected yeah I was very happy in my very Consulting life just you know dealing with Baby Boomers who wanted to go golfing yeah but uh I think we had other plans so

MK: well sometimes people step up and I I've been talking about this a lot people that stuck their necks out I I you know we um someone was trashing someone else on Twitter for calling Jay baruchara a hero I'm like are you kidding me bet everything to do the right thing and I'm like somebody's got to do that and this book is great for I love the structure because the chapters are quite simple and if you want to dig in deeper you can go into the footnotes and and if you really want to dig deep you can look at the spreadsheets and all that stuff well good luck with this and I'm glad we had a chance to talk about it and let's never let this happen again thanks Matt and next time

JH: I'll bring San Diego weather with me okay please do